Narcissism is a convoluted concept, and it’s worth disambiguating.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The first thing I find myself thinking is that people have different bandwidths. A person can have a very large bandwidth and care a lot about themselves AND a lot about others, simultaneously. These people are often described as \u201clarger than life\u201d.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
A person might also be \u201csmaller than life\u201d – either \u201cnaturally\u201d, or as a conscious decision – taking great pains to avoid scrutiny, avoid taking up space in public, avoid being seen or heard. This can be part of a sort of narcissism in itself, though few would call it that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
The other important variable other than self-concern is concern for others. Many seem to think of this as a balancing act – like we have a limited amount of concern and we have to allocate it say 50\/50 self vs others, or 60\/40 or whatever. It breaks down if you interrogate it closely.<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Some people use their smallness and seeming insignificance as a justification for not having to care about others, not being interested or concerned about others. Just kinda anonymously ghosting and coasting through life with minimal fuss. (Not judging! Just observing)<\/p>\n\n\n\n
Some people care deeply about others to the point of being self-sacrificial. If they\u2019re skilled about it, it can be a good life, but if they\u2019re not, this way of being also ends up leading to \u201cunforeseen\u201d problems and failures that somebody<\/em> has to deal with.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I think the global default good life script is something like\u2026 care about your family, care about your community, meet your obligations on those fronts, do a little extra for them if you like, get by, indulge in something you enjoy from time to time, don\u2019t be a dick, die happy. See Steve Jobs’ quote about “Try not to bash into the walls too much.”<\/p>\n\n\n\n This is a sort of \u201cbasic life\u201d, and if you live a good basic life that\u2019s genuinely something to be proud of, IMO. There is so much cruelty and toxicity in the world – if you manage to avoid giving in to that, and you help someone out now and then, I love you and I\u2019m proud of you.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Where I think all of this starts to get interesting is this:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Everyone has some script or set of beliefs about what is appropriate, what is good, what is right. And if you\u2019re reading this, you are certainly<\/em> going to run into people who have different scripts, different beliefs.<\/p>\n\n\n\n So for example, a person who believes that life should be small and unobtrusive might see another person living large, and accuse them of being \u201cnarcissistic\u201d. Even though the second person might actually do more and care more for others than the first person ever does!<\/p>\n\n\n\n And that isn\u2019t necessarily \u201cwrong\u201d either; it\u2019s just that different people have different models and different ideas about what is good and what is right and what is an \u201cappropriate\u201d way to be; we are all projecting from our experiences + received wisdom + reflections and so on.<\/p>\n\n\n\n A phrase I\u2019ve found myself using repeatedly is \u201cnarcissists ruin self-love for the rest of us\u201d- ie there are<\/em> people who are troublingly self-obsessed + troublingly indifferent to the needs of others, and their actions & behaviors can unfortunately be contaminated by association.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I think the accusation of narcissism carries ostracizing undertones – ie \u201cthat guy is selfishly self-obsessed, ew, people like us don\u2019t do things like that.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n And I think people in general, being social creatures, are wary of being ostracized. Which is quite rational.<\/p>\n\n\n\n So I\u2019m increasingly convinced that people who are mean to themselves do it as a sort of anti-ostracization defense. Many people unfortunately apologise for promoting their own work &are wary of celebrating themselves lest they be ostracized as narcissists. (There is a gendered aspect to this.)<\/p>\n\n\n\n If you possess talents and abilities that you want to use in service of others, you will quite probably find yourself in the confusing position of having to advocate for yourself. Maybe run for office, maybe seek a leadership role. Take on more responsibility, influence outcomes.<\/p>\n\n\n\n It\u2019s very easy to say \u201cthat guy is great, everyone should hear what he has to say.\u201d It\u2019s much more difficult to say \u201cpeople should listen to me\u201d.<\/p>\n\n\n\n And it\u2019s interesting (& troubling) to consider how this social complication is a bottleneck that keeps out highly-qualified people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Put it this way: our weird hangups about narcissism perpetuate a self-fulfilling prophecy where arrogant egotists are often overrepresented, and thoughtful, doubtful folks are often underrepresented. And then we go, \u201cAha, see, only narcissists run for office!\u201d (for example).<\/p>\n\n\n\n One simple and effective way to avoid a lot of this problem is to be a great wingman to your friends and peers. A group of peers who are sincere<\/em><\/strong> and honest<\/em><\/strong> about what\u2019s good creates a scene that accelerates the production of high-quality output.<\/p>\n\n\n\n This sidesteps the 1-to-many problem, but it still doesn\u2019t quite help with the 0-to-1 problem. Before you can create work that others rave about, you first have to create work. & this itself is something some people find narcissistic, which is an unfortunate inhibitation.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Anyway I\u2019m running out of steam and should get to bed. But as a closing thought, simply consider this frame: we should be honest with ourselves & each other about what\u2019s good, and we should challenge + support each other (and ourselves!) to do great work.<\/p>\n\n\n\n The galaxy-brain take for those who want to go there: the self is itself an illusion anyway; we are but fleeting assemblages and all our work is necessarily derivative. Narcissism then is a sort of bug, a hallucination; a fixation on a thing that isn\u2019t even actually there. <\/p>\n\n\n\n \u2731 <\/p>\n\n\n\n I think the idea that “narcissists are in love with themselves” is a a misleading, inaccurate concept<\/p>\n\n\n\n I think narcissists are obsessed with enforcing validation of a static image of themselves. this is a fearful state of mind that leaves little to no room for actual love at all<\/p>\n\n\n\n actual love is patient, kind, generous, gentle, happy, cheerful, open to surprise<\/p>\n\n\n\n “I must make everything about me” is not love. that’s fear<\/p>\n\n\n\n The tragedy is then, because of this misframe (“narcissists love themselves” as opposed to “narcissists are addicted to a static self-image of themselves”), many regular folks are afraid to celebrate themselves, or sometimes even BE HAPPY, in case they seem narcissistic to others<\/p>\n\n\n\n narcissists make more sense to me when I interpret their behavior as self-loathing rather than self-love <\/p>\n\n\n\n having a multi-parts framework also makes everything make much more sense than a monolithic self-concept. almost everyone is internally conflicted<\/p>\n\n\n\n the internal dynamic, the relationship within the self is loathing and contempt. but the part doing the hating gets all the pleasure of power and tyranny, without working to earn the right of leadership<\/p>\n\n\n\n been chewing on these ideas for several years now, really agonizing about what I really think and feel, trying to make sure I don’t say anything wrong (challenge: impossible). I find myself at a stage where its like… everything is continuums, unintegratedness, projections\u2026<\/p>\n\n\n\n I find myself feeling really sorry for narcissists, actually. i’m increasingly starting to recognize, in every villain, a grotesque, transmogrified mirror version of myself<\/p>\n\n\n\n to be clear, this doesn’t excuse or write off any of the abuse and damage that they do<\/p>\n\n\n\n and tbh a thing that I’m conflicted about is using the phrase “narcissist” at all. I think I’m leaning towards “we should retire the phrase”. because using the phrase reinforces the frame. calling someone a narcissist is a provocation to either accept or reject the frame.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I have the same issue with the label “incel”. we shouldn’t use the word. it reinforces the frame. every time the word is used, it evokes “can’t have sex”. but sex isn’t really the problem. but we MAKE it the problem. which is IMHO why “the incel problem” cannot be solved<\/p>\n\n\n\n mm this is also why I’m taking so long with my book lol I’m nervous about the more radical implications. I’m kind of politely saying that everybody is goddamn wrong<\/p>\n\n\n\n talking with wife about the different kinds of narcissism & had an odd thought: sometimes it can be \u201cmore narcissistic\u201d to be private than public, in the sense that one might want to protect one\u2019s self-image from scrutiny<\/p>\n\n\n\n Narcissism is a convoluted concept, needs disambiguating<\/p>\n\n\n\n The first thing I find myself thinking is that people have different bandwidths. A person can have a very large bandwidth and care a lot about themselves AND a lot about others, simultaneously. These people are often described as \u201clarger than life\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n A person might also be \u201csmaller than life\u201d – either \u201cnaturally\u201d, or as a conscious decision – taking great pains to avoid scrutiny, avoid taking up space in public, avoid being seen or heard. This IMO can be part of a sort of narcissism in itself, though few would call it that<\/p>\n\n\n\n The other important variable other than self-concern is concern for others. Many seem to think of this as a balancing act – like we have a limited amount of concern and we have to allocate it say 50\/50 self vs others, or 60\/40 or whatever. It breaks down if you interrogate it IMO<\/p>\n\n\n\n Some people use their smallness and seeming insignificance as a justification for not having to care about others, not being interested or concerned about others. Just kinda anonymously ghosting and coasting through life with minimal fuss. (Not judging! Just observing)<\/p>\n\n\n\n Some people care deeply about others to the point of being self-sacrificial. If they\u2019re skilled about it, it can be a good life, but if they\u2019re not, this way of being also ends up leading to \u201cunforeseen\u201d problems and failures that *somebody* has to deal with<\/p>\n\n\n\n I think the global default good life script is something like… care about your family, care about your community, meet your obligations on those fronts, do a little extra for them if you like, get by, indulge in something you enjoy from time to time, don\u2019t be a dick, die happy (Steve Jobs bash into the walls quote)<\/p>\n\n\n\n This is a sort of \u201cbasic life\u201d, and if you live a good basic life that\u2019s genuinely something to be proud of, IMO. There is so much cruelty and toxicity in the world – if you manage to avoid giving in to that, and you help someone out now and then, I love you and I\u2019m proud of you<\/p>\n\n\n\n Where I think all of this starts to get interesting is this:<\/p>\n\n\n\n Everyone has some script or set of beliefs about what is appropriate, what is good, what is right<\/p>\n\n\n\n And if you\u2019re reading this, you are *certainly* going to run into people who have different scripts, different beliefs<\/p>\n\n\n\n So for example, a person who believes that life should be small and unobtrusive might see another person living large, and accuse them of being \u201cnarcissistic\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n Even though the second person might actually do more and care more for others than the first person ever does!<\/p>\n\n\n\n And that isn\u2019t necessarily \u201cwrong\u201d either; it\u2019s just that different people have different models and different ideas about what is good and what is right and what is an \u201cappropriate\u201d way to be; we are all projecting from our experiences + received wisdom + reflections and so on<\/p>\n\n\n\n A phrase I\u2019ve found myself using repeatedly is \u201cnarcissists ruin self-love for the rest of us\u201d- ie there *are* people who are troublingly self-obsessed + troublingly indifferent to the needs of others, and their actions & behaviors can unfortunately be contaminated by association<\/p>\n\n\n\n I think the accusation of narcissism carries ostracizing undertones – ie \u201cthat guy is selfishly self-obsessed, ew, people like us don\u2019t do things like that.\u201d<\/p>\n\n\n\n And I think people in general, being social creatures, are wary of being ostracized. Which is quite rational<\/p>\n\n\n\n So I\u2019m increasingly convinced that people who are mean to themselves do it as a sort of anti-ostracization defense. Many people unfortunately apologise for promoting their own work & are wary of celebrating themselves lest they be ostracized as narcissists.<\/p>\n\n\n\n If you possess talents and abilities that you want to use in service of others, you will quite probably find yourself in the confusing position of having to advocate for yourself. Maybe run for office, maybe seek a leadership role. Take on more responsibility, influence outcomes<\/p>\n\n\n\n It\u2019s very easy to say \u201cthat guy is great, everyone should hear what he has to say.\u201d It\u2019s much more difficult to say \u201cpeople should listen to me\u201d. <\/p>\n\n\n\n And it\u2019s interesting (& troubling) to consider how this social complication is a bottleneck that keeps out highly-qualified people<\/p>\n\n\n\n Put it this way: our weird hangups about narcissism perpetuate a self-fulfilling prophecy where arrogant egotists are often overrepresented, and thoughtful, doubtful folks are often underrepresented. And then we go \u201caha, see, only narcissists run for office\u201d (for eg)<\/p>\n\n\n\n One simple and effective way to sidestep this entire problem is to be a great wingman to your friends and peers. A group of peers who are SINCERE and HONEST about what\u2019s good creates a scene that accelerates the production of high-quality output.<\/p>\n\n\n\n Actually no, sorry. This sidesteps the 1-to-many problem, but it doesn\u2019t help with the 0-to-1 problem. Before you can create work that others rave about, you first have to create work. & this itself is something some people find narcissistic, which is an unfortunate inhibitation<\/p>\n\n\n\n Anyway I\u2019m running out of steam and should get to bed. But as a closing thought, simply consider this frame: we should be honest with ourselves & each other about what\u2019s good, and we should challenge + support each other (and ourselves!) to do great work. (Patrick: I\u2019m rooting for you!)<\/p>\n\n\n\n The galaxy-brain take for those who want to go there: the self is itself an illusion anyway; we are but fleeting assemblages and all our work is necessarily derivative. Narcissism then is a sort of bug, a hallucination; a fixation on a thing that isn\u2019t even actually there. <\/p>\n\n\n\n ~~~<\/p>\n\n\n\n you ever play one of those games where there’s a balancing act you have to do? like, a lockpick interface, where you have to get the touchpad or something just right? i’m thinking there’s something similar about the right amount of self-regard, self-awareness. it’s like surfing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n I circled around this a while ago with “it can sometimes be more narcissistic to be private than public, if you’re doing it to protect your self-image from scrutiny”<\/p>\n\n\n\n it’s a balancing act, you can fail by going too hot or you can fail by going too cold (Ross: WHY ME?)<\/p>\n\n\n\n why am I such a terrible person, do I deserve redemption, what will it take to make me feel like I do, why am I such a burden to other people, I feel so guilty, ashamed<\/p>\n\n\n\n your feelings are real, and you shouldn’t deny them. but you shouldn’t be drowning in them either (Dr Strange: it\u2019s not about you)<\/p>\n\n\n\n a funny thought I’ve sometimes had while listening to friends confide in me over the years is “lol, some part of you is clearly enjoying the performance of this monologue even as you talk about being miserable”. and enjoyment is not a bad thing!! even hypocrisy I think is OK tbh<\/p>\n\n\n\n how does this play out in groups? people semi-consensually get into Games People Play sitcom scenarios . there are exceptions to this rule, obviously, and people who think they are the exception (and might be right!) are particularly vocal \u2013 but once you see it you can’t unsee it (\/sitcoms\/)<\/p>\n\n\n\n When you say you hate yourself, at some level, you respect the part of you (A) that hates the rest of you (B). you give A authority. you give A respect. Why? Why did A do to deserve respect? If it’s nothing, why do you give A any legitimacy at all?<\/p>\n\n\n\n self-loathing is narcissistic.and to be clear + to repeat myself, I do not think of narcissism as a moral failure. to me, it’s just sort of a trait, like a bug. maybe a feature. whatever. it is what it is. ideas like “narcissism is bad” and “narcissists are bad” IMO are actually unhelpful<\/p>\n\n\n\n self-loathing requires that you construct a self for you to loathe. self-loathing requires that you participate in the delusional conceit that you know who you are. self-loathing is a remarkably elaborate, robust and effective system of making sure that you stay the same<\/p>\n\n\n\n And if it isn’t clear, I have nothing against people who loathe themselves! I’m just describing what I see, and it’s actually quite interesting to me. it’s like watching reruns of Friends. There’s a comforting familiarity to it, which I imagine is what people like about it (Rachel: why does everything happen to me?)<\/p>\n\n\n\n \u2731 <\/p>\n\n\n\n people don\u2019t say this out loud as much but self-loathing is a form of narcissism<\/p>\n\n\n\n it\u2019s also very often a sort of preemptive strike; if you hate yourself first it hurts a little less in comparison when other people hate you<\/p>\n\n\n\n when you let go of your self-loathing, which is a form of addiction, a fearful attempt at self-preservation via stasis and control<\/p>\n\n\n\n \u2731 <\/p>\n\n\n\nNarcissists don\u2019t love themselves<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
\u2731 <\/p>\n\n\n\nIt can be more narcissistic to be private than public<\/h3>\n\n\n\n
![\"\"](\"https:\/\/www.visakanv.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/05\/image-1.png\")
<\/a><\/figure>\n\n\n\n